Poll: Christmas Tree or Holiday Tree?
Rhode Island Gov. Lincoln Chafee is hosting a 'holiday tree' lighting next week, despite objections.
Holiday tree or Christmas tree?
Rhode Island Gov. Lincoln Chafee is calling the 17-foot spruce tree that will be lit inside the Statehouse rotunda a "holiday tree," even though the General Assembly passed a resolution calling it a "Christmas tree" earlier this year.
According to The Providence Journal, the governor is defending his use of the term, saying it honors Rhode Island's heritage as a refuge for religious tolerance three centuries ago. Some state lawmakers criticize his position, and an Associated Press story on the issue has been picked up across the country. News outlets such as The Washington Post, MSNBC and the Huffington Post have all run with the story.
The governor is inviting all Rhode Islanders to join him and his wife for the annual lighting next Tuesday, Dec. 6, at 5:30 p.m.
Cynthia Lachapelle Shannon
5:07 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
The holiday we celebrate with a decorated tree is in fact Christmas, so why call it a holiday tree?
Ron
9:45 am on Monday, December 5, 2011
What you expect from a left wing News Outfit. Look at the poll, Ill bet a Million dollars you can go out on any American Street and ask the question, the majority will overwhelmingly call it a Christmas tree. At least they could of made the poll seem real.
This is what you get when you have a website that is an extension of the Huffington Post.
Kris Wetterland Jr.
6:00 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
It's a Christmas tree that's it. There is nothing left to say.
Joe Sousa.
7:34 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Thy leaves are so unchanging;
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Thy leaves are so unchanging;
Not only green when summer's here,
But also when 'tis cold and drear.
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Thy leaves are so unchanging!
Richard Brum
1:38 am on Friday, December 2, 2011
It's "O Tannenbaum", not "O Christmas Tree". What, co-opting Roman traditions (the tree) wasn't enough for you Christians, now you gotta co-opt songs, too? What's next, re-writing Bing Crosby's "Happy Holidays" to "Merry Christmas"? Get over yourselves, Christians. You can call YOUR tree whatever you want. Nobody's stopping you. Nobody gets offended when you say Merry Christmas to them, either, especially not atheists.
The Shill
6:06 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
What does a tree have to do with Christ's birth? That birth by the way, was not in December. Has anyone ever looked into 'Christmas'? It's origins are all PAGAN. Christ would want to have nothing to do with it! Why such lack of easily obtained knowledge? America is now the home of Bible illiterates.
Joe Sousa.
7:35 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
O Christmas Tree is a traditional German Carol. The author of the lyrics are unknown as is the composer of the lyrics. The tradition of bringing a tree inside and decorating it with candy, baubles and bells was started in the nineteenth century and is immortalized in the carol O Christmas Tree lyrics.
Merry Christmas Scrooge La Shill
Carol Bragg
10:43 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
The German carol is O Tannenbaum -- oh fir tree. "Christmas" in German is "Weinachten." The carol is not O Weinachtenbaum. Whether it's a Christmas tree or a holiday tree is a matter of personal choice. But the German song is about a fir tree.
henryjviveiros
7:53 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Its refreshing to finally hear from someone who has done their homework the shill has it correct
Ray Andrews
10:56 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
The Christian church, in the 4'th century, settled upon the date of December 25'th as it followed 9 month's after the Annunciation by the angel Gabriel to Mary that she would conceive and become mother to Jesus. The Annunciation is commonly dated to March 25'th.
Wiccan/Pagan holidays, or sabbats, fall roughly every three months, so any child that was conceived during the same timeframe as one Pagan holiday (in this case Ostara) and born 9 months later, would naturally be in the same timeframe as another Pagan holiday (Yule). Three months divides evenly into 9 months.
As for the views of Jesus Christ, I'm unfamiliar with any case where Jesus would have "nothing to do with" anything based on religion. He was a nice guy like that.
The origins of Christmas are not "all Pagan". There are Pagan holidays, and there are Christian holidays, and some happen at the same time of the year.
The Shill
6:09 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
Boy, the pro-Christmas -- and ostensibly Christian -- crowd sure is intolerant of faiths and nationalities that aren't theirs. Just like Jesus preached!
Oh, wait a minute...that's the polar opposite of what he preached. He was all about loving and accepting everyone, unconditionally. Funny how some (not all; SOME) Christians forget that part when it interferes with their bigotry and blind fear of that which they don't understand.
The Christmas tree has its roots (no pun intended) in pagan tradition. That is well-established fact. Even well-educated members of the Christian faith know this. To wit: http://www.counterpunch.org/2007/12/15/let-s-take-christ-out-of-christmas/ -- so if anyone calls it a 'holiday tree,' that is in fact more accurate than calling it a Christmas tree.
But more to the point: if individuals want to call it a Christmas tree, a holiday tree, a Hanukkah bush, or a Festivus pole, who cares? Let them celebrate the holiday in their way in peace, and go celebrate it in yours. Spreading joy, even if it's accomplished by not giving others a hard time because they aren't observing the big day the way you think it should be observed, is more in keeping with the Christmas/Hanukkah/ Kwanzaa/Ramadan/Feast of Maximum Occupancy spirit than acting like an intolerant jerk.
Joyce
6:12 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
It's a Christmas Tree
Susan
10:51 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
This borders on the ridiculous...the holiday is called Christmas and we put up a Christmas tree! It is a way we celebrate the event. Now, will the Jews change Hanukkah to Candle Lighting? Will the Muslims change Ramadan to Fasting? No....so Christmas IS Christmas...l and leave it alone!
Richard Brum
1:41 am on Friday, December 2, 2011
Susan, you're acting like Gov. Chafee is harming YOUR personal traditions and beliefs. That can happen ONLY if you let it happen. You're free to call your tree whatever you'd like, nobody is stopping you from doing so. Please stop acting like you're being persecuted or you're some kind of martyr for "bravely" calling it a Christmas tree. Yes, we get it, it's a Christmas tree. Now go worry about something important, k?
mindy
9:22 am on Thursday, December 15, 2011
may i just say it is a christmas tree so build a bridge and get over it.
Jim
6:16 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
I'm a Christian who puts a tree up, but it has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus that I celebrate (unless I missed the part of the Bible story where the 3 wise men arrived with the tree tied to the top of their caravan). For the record, Santa and the crass commercialism of the season also aren't connected to Jesus' birth.
Average Joe
6:29 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
Christmas Tree
Jack Baillargeron
6:50 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
Frankly I thought it was a pine tree, but I digress. The tradition is what it is, Has been a Christmas tree because it is put up on Christmas far as I know. I also do not recall when Christmas was made a holiday the Congress decided to call it Holiday/Holiday.
As for Chafee being the Politically Correct and violating a law that made it named a Christmas tree, I would say typical Chafee. IgF you are aginst the law then change it, that is your right, until then it is a Christmas tree and whether you believe it has Christian beliefs attached to it is merel your opinion one way or the other. Howeve opinions do not gve you the right to ban things or be so silly to want a name changed based on some belief that it somehow is a violation of Church and State which as usual is the argument every year with these sort of things.
Study how this seperation came about in the constitution and actually read it and the Jefferson papers and you will be surprised how this has been turned around to the point where the true meaning of seperation has been lost and turned in to nothing more than a baseball bat for so many to deride one religion. Oh I am not Christian so don't start on that either. In this Country far as I know all citizens have the right to believe what ever they want, not to suppress the beliefs of those they disagree with period.
Richard Brum
1:43 am on Friday, December 2, 2011
Violating a law that made it named a Christmas tree? Please, point to such a law, Jack. Also, this is a tradition that PRE-DATES Chafee's term. Typical Chafee? Yeah, typical Chafee trying to include other cultures and traditions. He's so horrible for celebrating diversity at a time of the year when instead of whining and complaining about what he calls his tree, we should be focusing on things like feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, etc. But no, we have to spend our energy complaining about what the R.I. governor calls his tree.
STEVE
7:28 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
THIS SO CALLED GOV. WE GOT STUCK WITH SPENDS ALL HIS TIME TRYING TO PISS OFF THE PEOPLE OF RI
thatguydrummer@yahoo.com
2:10 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Exactly, how much time and effort has been used to make this absurd announcement and defend it in the media? How about working on something that will help create jobs or save taxpayer dollars? Chaffee is another Patrick Kennedy and let's hope it's only for one term!
Richard Brum
1:46 am on Friday, December 2, 2011
Maybe if you people didn't drum up so much fake controversy around the damn thing, he wouldn't have to spend his time defending it. There's nothing to defend! MOVE ON, you pathetic little trolls who have nothing better to do than demonize a man for celebrating diversity and being inclusive, both of which are wholly American concepts. You don't like it? Your lot shouldn't have demanded decades ago that the government secularize Christmas by making it an official federal holiday. And yes, that was an act on the part of Christians who, at the time, demanded special privilege... hmm, kind of like what we're seeing on this very page!
Scott Boyd
7:36 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
The government calls the holiday, Christmas, most everyone gets the day off. The tree is a Christmas tree, has nothing to do with Christ in today's age. The christian's may worship this day as the birth of Christ, but in parallel we have developed a tradition of Santa Claus and gift giving. Both can co-exist. An atheist can still partake of the Santa Claus gift giving for those who have been nice. He does not need to acknowledge Christ to have the day off and enjoy some Christmas cheer.
The government has not yet moved to force all american's to attend a church service and pray to our Lord on the 25 th; just take the day off and do with it what you choose. Maybe once they win the "you must buy health insurance mandate" in the Supreme Court they'll make their move to require compulsory church attendance in exchange for the day off :-)
RI Politics
8:12 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
I'm sorry I voted for this dope! Won't happen again. But hey they voted for Bush two times so I can't be any worse!
Keith E
12:17 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
I'm sorry you voted for Mr 36% too. Why is it that so many people think AFTER they vote?? Exhibit A: Chafee - A first class Looney Tune. Exhibit B: Obama - Lowest rate of approval of any President in history so early in his term. Let's think BEFORE you pull the lever next time!
Jean Marie Veegh
11:50 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Hey, everyone makes a mistake - thanks for having the smarts not to repeat it. :)
Middle of the road
8:20 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
I apologize RI, I also voted for this moron and feel I helped put the village idiot into office.
Jean Marie Veegh
11:51 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Same to you - no worries, just don't do it again, <smile>
Tisiphone
10:56 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
I get so tired of this, every year. It is a tempest in a tea pot. A Christmas tree is what it is, a Christmas tree. Putting up a Christmas tree on public property is not the "establishment of religion", it is simply recognition of a holiday observed by about 90% of constituents. I wonder if anyone is yet referring to a Menorah as a "holiday candelabra"?
Why is it that atheists spend more time discussing God than do believers?
Why don't we just cancel the "retail holiday" and be done with this business.
Oh, Tanenbaum, or, Oh, Christmas Tree, dates back to about 1550. So, we can assume the Germans knew about Christmas trees at that date. Why did the Germans write all the good Christmas music? I had a German girlfriend who didn't know that the "Blue Danube" had lyrics until she heard them in English. I notice that Christmas Carols are no longer played on radio stations which are piped into stores. It is all "Jingle Bells" and "rockin around the Christmas tree".
Richard Brum
1:48 am on Friday, December 2, 2011
"Why is it that atheists spend more time discussing God than do believers?"
Because you're the ones trying to shove God down the rest of our throats, demanding special privilege by making Christmas a holiday, complaining that stores use Christmas to promote their business, THEN complain that they don't outright say Merry Christmas.
And "O Tannenbaum" does not translate to "Christmas Tree". It translates to "fir tree". That's it. It's a song about a fir tree. It was Christians who co-opted the song (much like you co-opted the tree tradition from the Saturnalia celebration of ancient Romans) and made into their own special thing.
Also, "tree" is a noun, as is "menorah". "Menorah" is Hebrew for... get this... Hannukah lamp. So nice try with your "holiday candelabra" argument. It's already called that, genius.
Tisiphone
10:57 pm on Tuesday, November 29, 2011
I get so tired of this, every year. It is a tempest in a tea pot. A Christmas tree is what it is, a Christmas tree. Putting up a Christmas tree on public property is not the "establishment of religion", it is simply recognition of a holiday observed by about 90% of constituents. I wonder if anyone is yet referring to a Menorah as a "holiday candelabra"?
Why is it that atheists spend more time discussing God than do believers?
Why don't we just cancel the "retail holiday" and be done with this business.
Oh, Tanenbaum, or, Oh, Christmas Tree, dates back to about 1550. So, we can assume the Germans knew about Christmas trees at that date. Why did the Germans write all the good Christmas music? I had a German girlfriend who didn't know that the "Blue Danube" had lyrics until she heard them in English. I notice that Christmas Carols are no longer played on radio stations which are piped into stores. It is all "Jingle Bells" and "rockin around the Christmas tree".
Joe Sousa.
5:50 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Christmas celebration to be held at Tiverton Town Hall on Dec. 4th.
Governor Grinch is not invited
John Tattrie
6:28 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
So now the next thing is: Lets try to change Christmas into something different, When does this nonsense end. With all the things wrong with this State, couldn't our Governor find something better to do with his time, other than prove to us he's an idiot.
Richard Brum
1:48 am on Friday, December 2, 2011
This nonsense ends when a large Christian majority decides to petition the government to REMOVE Christmas as a federal (and therefore secular) holiday. Until that happens, it belongs to all of us, and we can call our trees whatever we want.
Vin
7:06 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Non-Scriptural pagan holiday tree.
pferd
7:21 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Why when Christians insist on something they are called intolerant "Christians", but when other religions insist on their.tradition we need to respect their "right".
IT IS A CHRISTMAS TREE,
Meesh
7:32 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
It's always been a christmas tree...and always will be a christmas tree.....let it be, why make a big deal about it. you can name(or beleive) it whatever you want, but it will always be a christmas tree.
Charles
7:41 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
HEY STEVE, YOU GOTTA ADMIT, HE'S DOING A HECK OF A JOB AT SOMETHING!
THIS GUY CARES MORE ABOUT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS THAN HE DOES WORKING CLASS AMERICAN CITIZENS. IT'S A CHRISTMAS TREE, DON'T LIKE IT? TOUGH!!!
Sick of Tiverton
7:44 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
We cant say "merry Christmas"...we cant say "happy Easter"...now we cant say "Christmas Tree"....RIDICULOUS!!! How about we say whatever we want!!! I will continue to say it to everyone when I feel like it!! This guys an A** ! Does he even kno whose Birthday it is that day!
Emcee of Seekonk
7:47 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Are we to say Santa Claus leaves gifts under a holiday tree? Why bother, just stack the gifts up in a corner, it'll be easier. And speaking of Santa, or St. Nicolas, are they the next to go? Clearly, Wall Street is not going to like this.
Sick of Tiverton
7:53 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
A friend of mine, laast year, said "HAPPY HANNAKA".....I dont celebrate it BUT she does and she thought of me.. SO ...i said "Thank you and the same to you" . Now, after I said that, i felt good about it. SHe thought of me for that split second an a special day for her..i hurt no one by saying what I said back to her, as a matter of fact...we were both HAPPY! Then at Christmas time, i did the same to her..and she replied the samme back to me!!! This holiday is whats in your heart, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS...!
Sick of Tiverton
7:56 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
So do we change the song too....Oh Holiday Tree Oh Holiday tree.or how about...Rockin around the Holiday tree.........he is a jack***...#1 !
KO
8:10 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Maybe ol' Linc can perch on top of it and we can call it a doofus tree....Merry Christmas indeed.
VITO BRACCIODIETA
8:44 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
I don't think Gov Chafee foresees any further career in government. He insists on calling it a Holiday Tree and hopefully he will be on a full time holiday of his own, then he can plant all the trees he wants and call them whatever he wants as long as it not in public forum. He is a disgrace and an insult to Christianity.
Vito in Jensen Beach Florida 'MERRY CHRISTMAS GOVERNOR"
Mary Martin
8:45 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
IT IS A CHRISTMAS TREE!! THIS POLITICALLY CORRECT STUFF IS FOR THE BIRDS. THIS IS THE SAME AS THOSE THAT ARE TRYING TO CHANGE THE WORDING IN CLASSICS TO MAKE THEM "POLITICALLY CORRECT". THEY WERE CORRECT WHEN WRITTEN AS THAT IS THE WAY PEOPLE SPOKE BACK THEN. OK, NOT A CHRISTMAS TREE SO WHY NOT DO AWAY WITH THE HOLIDAY? I'LL BET THE GOV TAKES THE DAY OFF FOR "CHRISTMAS" AND ENJOYS IT.
IT IS A CHRISTMAS TREE AND THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE.
deb of see-attleboro
8:56 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
I agree with all who posted that this is not about whether the tree in a government building is called a "holiday tree" or a "Christmas tree". This is about a very bitter man who is at the helm who simply wants to piss people off.
Maybe a few spirits should pay "Scrooge" a visit on Christmas eve.
Diana Campbell
9:08 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
A Christmas tree is a Christmas tree. One would not call a Menorah a "Holiday Candle", an Easter Egg a "Holiday Egg", a Valentine a "Holiday Heart", a Halloween costume a "Holiday Costume", a Shamrock a "Holiday Leaf"... You get the idea...
Antonio A Teixeira
10:13 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Diana - great point!
Reyniery Salvado
9:13 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
its a Christmass Tree not a Holiday Tree, I think Mr Governor needs to focus more on the state economy and help others in this times .....!!!!!!!
Antonio A Teixeira
10:12 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Merry CHRISTmas to ALL! Breakfast with Santa @ Mt. Hope High School - 8am > 11am - Sunday, Dec 4.
We are all invited to the CHRISTmas lighting - to light the Christmas Tree - Sunday, Dec 4 on Hope Street in Bristol ... Christmas music and illumination - 4:15 > 6:15pm.
Sick of Tiverton
12:56 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Merry Christmas to you as well! And thank you for inviting me to light the CHRISTmas Tree!! Sounds like a very SPECIAL night!!
Michael Rielly
10:22 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Umm, okay. If it is a "Holiday Tree" then what "holiday" is it for?
Jean Marie Veegh
1:10 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Spot on.....
Bob Cosgrove
1:23 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
The Holiday is called Yule it is celebrated on Dec. 21 it marks the rebirth of the Sun God it was later absorbed into, and equated with, the Christian festival of Christmas. The holiday tree has nothing to do with Christ and is a pagan tradition.
Cranky Yankee
10:32 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
I am so tired of The Village Idiot wasting his time (and ours) on such 'pressing' matters. Every time he opens his mouth, his revered and respected father turns over in his grave. It's a CHRISTMAS Tree, just like it's a MENORAH, just like it's an EASTER Egg Hunt ... it has nothing to do with religion. Last time I looked, our dollar bills still read, "In GOD We Trust", our Declaration of Independence still states that Americans are "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights" and the name of the Federal Holiday on Dec. 25th is "CHRISTMAS Day", not 'Winter Solstice Day.'
Too many horseshoes, too many kicks in the head ...
Tisiphone
10:43 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
"It's a CHRISTMAS Tree, just like it's a MENORAH, just like it's an EASTER Egg Hunt ... it has nothing to do with religion"
But it is no longer "Saint" Valentine's Day. It does seem to survive in the "St. Valentine's Day Massacre".
The Shill
1:43 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Bad news for you Easter is not Christian it's Pagan just like Christmas. Easter is the celebration of the pagan Goddess Eostre, a Teutonic goddess of spring and fertility. Most Christian holidays were stolen from the Pagans and have nothing to do with Christ.
John Tattrie
2:10 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Awsome.....
malcom lagauche
11:02 am on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
For those who cite historical reasons for calling the tree a "Christmas tree," there are many anomalies. Similar trees have been used by various cultures long before it was adopted by Christianity. It has pagan, Celtic, Roman and medeival roots. In the 19th century, when Christmas trees became popular in the US, most Christian religions decried this practice. However, the tradition became so popular that they changed their minds and decided to embrace the idea. The German song, "Oh Tannenbaum" has been translated into English as "Oh Christmas Tree." This is an improper translation. In fact, tannenbaum means "fir tree." Call it what you want, but don't cite history as the reason for the exclusive name of "Christmas tree."
Jean Marie Veegh
12:39 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
O Tannenbaum always meant der Weihnachtsbaum. My mother was German and my husband born, raised in Vienna – it’s about as silly as the tomato v. tomahto argument. Same fruit.
Ray Andrews
12:10 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
The important thing is that you call it what you believe it to be, not what is the trending politically correct nomenclature. If he's always called it a "Holiday Tree" that's one thing, but I'd be willing to bet that for most of his life it's been "Christmas Tree" and he's just embarrassing himself with political correctness.
Christmas Tree, Yule Log, Hanukkah Menorah, Festivus Pole, Kwanzaa Kinara, celebrating what you believe in doesn't diminish anyone elses traditions.
Tiverton Dad
12:22 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
I didn't vote for Chafee and it's unlikely that I'll vote for him the next time around, but i think there's a lot of misplaced anger. People are acting like he's taking away their right to use the phrase "Christmas tree." In fact, he's following the practice of previous governors in calling it a holiday tree, and the Christmas tree law that people keep referring to was actually a non-binding resolution. I call my Christmas tree a Christmas tree. If someone wants to call theirs by another name, what's the problem?
John Pearl
12:32 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Call it whatever is in your heart, I say. To me, they're Christmas trees. But if anyone else wants to call them holiday trees, including some Governor, doesn't effect me one bit.
My real question is... who is paying for this tree with all the lights and maintenance? Our taxes? Don't mean to sound like a scrooge but the only tree that really matters to me is the one in my home, and I think it is wrong for the state to be spending our (deficit) tax dollars on anything but necessities at this time of financial crisis.
Mrs. B
12:49 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Excellent point Diana. At least in Bristol we're not afraid to say MERRY CHRISTMAS! See you all at the celebration December 4th!!! You can come too Governor you need a bit of the CHRISTmas spirit.
Sick of Tiverton
12:58 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
I will say this as I cant stand the thought of this... MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OF YOU!! HAPPY HANNAKAH TO ALL OF YOU!! Whatever it is that you celebrate, MAY THIS BE THE BEST CHRISTMAS EVER!! I WISH ALL OF YOU AND YOUR FAMILIES LOVE AND PEACE THIS HOLIDAY SEASON!!! ESPECIALLY WHEN YOURE CHILDREN ARE AROUND THE "CHRISTMAS TREE" !!!
Charles
1:06 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
"If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything!"
Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, or whatever you celebrate, May God Bless us all !
Yes... even the governor.
malcom lagauche
1:10 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
I am not a Christian. In fact, I am an atheist but I still call the tree involved in this debate a Christmas tree out of old habits. It's up to an individual to assess whatever name he/she wants for whatever reason. We must remember that Rhode Island was created by Roger Williams who was the first non-native who professed freedom of all religions. The first Jewish synagogue in the US was built in Rhode Island. Under Roger Williams, people of all religions, and native Americans who were not Christian, were allowed to practice their own belief systems. Therefore, Rhode Island should be proud of its religious tolerance and show this pride in not getting all shook up whether the governor wants to call a tree a "holiday tree" or a "Christmas tree." Neither Christians nor any other group, hold a monopoly on this tree that has been used to celebrate various religous and non-religious events over the centuries. I am not a fan of either the Republican or Democrat parties, yet Chafee had the integrity to stand up for what he believes in. We should all aspire to have enough fortitude to vocally support our actions and not stick our heads in the sand. I see that many people denigrated Chafee for his political stances on other issues. I am not familiar with his politics, but he was courageous on this one issue.
Jean Marie Veegh
1:15 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Funny, I don't see Chafee as being corageous. He's an elected public servant who chose not to act in acordance with the wishes of the majority - the people he is supposed to serve.
Jean Marie Veegh
4:13 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Yes, Larry....(to the below) but when you can't cut the baby in half, majority rules. Basic civics.
The Shill
4:38 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Jeannie Calling it a holiday tree preserves the rights of all.
The Shill
1:35 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
To all you great Christians who don't want Christ taken out of Christmas I have news for you he was never in Christmas. It never ceases to amaze me how many Christians know nothing about the religion they try to force on the rest of us. Christ was not born on Dec. 25 he was born in the spring. The Christmas you are celebrating is totalily Pagan in origian all the trimmings that go along with it like the tree are pagan traditons and have nothing to do with Christ. If you want to celebrate Christ's birth do it in the spring.
Ray Andrews
2:00 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Shill, I too am not a Christian, but your assumptions are incorrect and do not take into account changes made to the common calendar since the Roman era. The original start to the year was in March but was later moved to January, taking a time-frame that would 'now' be considered spring and moving it to what is currently the end/beginning of the year. Multiple other changes to the calendar over the eons have shifted many historical dates both forward and backward by days to weeks depending on when they occurred.
Yes many Christian holidays were intentionally celebrated at times intended to coincide with and diminish the observation of the Pagan holidays of the times, but to say that some Christian holidays have "nothing to do with" Christian observances is not correct. Many of the holidays over the years have become an amalgam . Easter/Ostara for example, children may celebrate the bunny, and the basket of goodies lending back to the symbology of the Pagan celebration, but the adults you will find in church celebrating the resurrection of Christ are celebrating the beliefs solely of their religion.
malcom lagauche
2:12 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
It wasn't until the end of the fourth century CE that the Christian church declared that December 25 was the date of the birth of Jesus. Centuries earlier, during times of the height of the Roman Empire, various gods and personalities were given the date of December 25 as their birthdate. These included pagan gods and godesses, Persian gods, and Babylonian gods. At that time, anyone of note (god or Earthlike person) was given the date of December 25 as their birthday as a matter of practice. Julius Caesar was not born on December 25, yet, over the years, this date has been given as his birthday, along with other people of note. If a historical Jesus ever existed, he probably was born in the springtime. Any true study of this, including theological research, concludes that Jesus was born around April. Another quandary is the location of his upbringing. According to Christianity, Jesus grew up in Nazareth. However, the most recent hi-tech archaeological studies have concluded that the oldest items found in Nazareth, a few pieces of pottery, came from the third century CE. The oldest bones found have been carbon-dated to the 15th century CE. We still have a lot of historical and archaeological research to perform to make sense of those times of antiquity.
The Shill
3:28 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Ray the calender may change but the seasons do not no matter what date you may assign to then the equinoxes and solstices do not. If you read the discription of Christ's birth in the bible you will see he was born around the vernal equinox not on Dec. 25 no matter how you change the calender. The solar year does not change so thge fact is no matter what you call it Christ was not born at Christmas.
Carol Bragg
2:18 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Frankly, it all depends on how you decorate it. If you have angels and creches, it's a Christmas tree. If you put on miniature menorahs and dreidels, it's a Hanukkah bush. If you put on non-religious decorations, it's a winter solstice tree, a December tree, or anything else you care to call it. Couldn't the state just put up a tree and invite people of all faith traditions or none to provide ornaments? What a novel idea. That would be an expression of tolerance.
malcom lagauche
3:00 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
That would definitely represent the concept that the state of Rhode Island was founded upon: freedom of religion or beliefs of all kinds. And, it would be quite an interesting tree when fully decorated.
deb of see-attleboro
3:09 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
No, Carol. I have to disagree Taking the traditional "Christmas tree" and gussying it up with whatever the masses desire at this particular time of year is an example of intolerance... IMO.
I am impressed with religious leaders who are turning there backs on the secular and saying enough is enough!! That is leadership!
The Shill
4:36 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Deb the tree is a secular symbol not a religious symbol of Christmas. There is no Christian religous symbolism in a pine tree. gold frankincense, myrrh, mangers these are religious symbols of Christmas. Putting trees in your house is a traditional pagan custom wich if you read your bible is forbidden. "You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."
East side
2:45 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
It's a christmas tree, always will be....
Jean Marie Veegh
3:04 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Despite the regurgitated facts about pagan trees, dates etc., history be it social, evolutionary, geologic is never an exact science. Carbon & radiometric dating have big error margins. Yet this isn’t the issue - talk about unable to see the forest for the Christmas trees.
‘Tis about an American tradition beloved by about 90% as the non-scientific poll suggests. Yet the revisionist bureaucrats ignore the will of the majority & mandate changes to facilitate PC agenda. This is not about religious sensitivity. Other gov’t offices add Menorahs & Kwanzaa symbols to public displays but would they move to re-name them? Why would we want to neutralize our traditions? Blah humbug.
John Paul II said Christmas Trees were "an ancient custom that exalts the value of life," because the evergreen remains unchanged through the harsh winter. Gifts under the tree a symbol of "the tree of life, a figure of Christ, God's greatest gift to all men." He made a point that gifts exchanged should not be only material.
We put our tree up last night watching our 3 & 4 year-old boys’ eyes light up. Unexplainably, they were extra kind to each other the rest of the night. At their age they are quite un-sophisticated, yet children seem to know a good thing when they see it. I rue the day when a Mum or Dad delivers to his child the lovely story of Christmas, but has to add the disclaimer that it really isn’t called Christmas anymore, at least not in public. How anticlimactic.
nptresident
3:10 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Who cares! Call it what you want. Trees and Jesus have nothing to do with each other. Maybe we should all put palm trees in our homes because Jesus never saw a fir tree....this is silly nonsense.
The Shill
3:37 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
What I find interesting in all this is the fact that the non-christians know more about the Christian religon then the so called Christians. People go to church every sunday but don't actually learn their religion. p.s. Sunday is not the sabith Saturday is read your bible on the seventh day he rested Sunday is the first day.
malcom lagauche
4:12 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Ditto.
mark
3:47 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
It looks like 11% of the people are getting coal for Christmas.
Jean Marie Veegh
3:54 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
I wasn't going to say it....
TAMORI
3:51 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Happy Kwanzukkahsolstmas (Kwanza/Hanukkah/Solstice/Christmas)
Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, gender neutral, celebration of the Earthen northern hemisphere winter solstice holiday(tm), practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all; and a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great, (not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country or is the only "AMERICA" in the western hemisphere), and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith, choice of computer platform, or sexual orientation of the wishee. (cont)
TAMORI
3:52 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
( cont)
By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms: This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year, or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.
Ray Andrews
4:00 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
You ignored Festivus ... I'll sue ;)
The Shill
4:23 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
In other words Happy Holidays
Jean Marie Veegh
3:53 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
@Larry....how does wishing to preserve the name "Christmas Tree" disrespect other peoples traditions? Where does your respect stop and start? I would be the in the front lines defending the wishes of Jews to ensure their lampstands remained "Menorahs", and similarily support the preservation of any other cultural symbols, traditions etc. by those who held them dear. This doesn't need to be about good "Christian behaviour", but merely, good neighborly behavior. Happy Holyday to you as well.
Jean Marie Veegh
4:46 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Reply to Larry below.....The govs move to rename the tree isn't "innocuous recognition" when not a few but a clear 90% wish the name to remain. Add all the other cultural religious symbols you wish - no worries. Why is it so difficult for you to grasp that a majority do not want their symbols or traditions maimed? Finally, your callous comment mocking Christians and their "team mascot" is just about as insensitive and un-neighborly as you can get. But you knew that, didn't you?
The Shill
5:46 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Jeannie as a practicing Pagan it was our symbol first how do you think we feel now that you are trying to link it to your religon. You are the ones that renamed it we want it back. Christians can be so arrogant thinking eveything belongs to them and feeling they can trample over everyone elses rights because the happen to be in the majority. Not everyone is Christian and not every symbol is yours alone.
M. P.
3:58 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Really?? Who cares! Call it whatever you want... put one up, don't put one up, decorate it, don't decorate it... who really cares! I think we as a nation have far more important things to worry about than this!
Sick of Tiverton
4:12 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
It doesnt matter WHERE the Holiday started! The Christmas Holiday is whats in your heart! Whether its Catholic, Pagan or something else! Its a matter of whats inside and what it means to each of us as humans! Peace and love and just the feeling that it brings! Call it what you want, in my home..Its a Christmas Tree...its Merry Christmas...and it Happy Easter!!
Richard
4:45 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
To quote the great Lloyd Benson....... Linc..You are NO John H. Chaffee!!!!
malcom lagauche
4:50 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Carbon-dating has been called inaccurate in this discussion. However, the facts differ. From the 1970s onward, technololgy has advanced to the point that the scientific community is convinced that the age of items up to about 50,000 years can be acccurately measured within an error margin of about 20 years. There are some people who discount carbon-dating, but they are not in the scientific community. Most naysayers state that it is inaccurate because the results don't comply with their beliefs. Most of the opponents of carbon-dating discount carbon-dating results because they contradict the history of their religious beliefs. Nothing is infallible, but science is the best we have currently. It's the only subject that tries to prove itself wrong before it accepts a theory as fact. Once a theory is presented, the scientific community jumps all over it. Then, if it passes muster after scrutinizing, it becomes an accepted fact. Carbon-dating has gone through these tests and has come out in a positive manner.
Sick of Tiverton
4:51 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
We put a tree and decorate it on the Holiday called CHRISTMAS ...HENCE the name ...."CHRISTMAS TREE" ...its that simple!!!
The Shill
6:00 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
We put up a tree in the month of December which has many religious holidays HENCE the name .... "HOLIDAY TREE"... its that simple!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Yule Dec. 21, Christmas Dec. 25, Ashura Dec. 5, Hanukkah Dec. 21-28, Bodhi Day Dec. 8, Zarathosht Diso Dec. 26, Kwanzaa Dec. 26, New Years Jan. 1) Christians don't own December get over it
Sweetp1160
5:21 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
This is all so ridiculous....lololololol........nothing better to do!
Susan
6:17 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Holiday Tree, Christmas Tree, it's all really the same. We all know what time of year it is. Calling it "The Holidays" is being inclusive of everyone and a nice thing to do. Aren't there more important things to worry about---Like neighbors having enough to eat and money to heat their homes this winter????
Tiverton Dad
6:37 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
I find it interesting that a silly little poll about what to call a tree generates 116 responses when news of the Tiverton town council's suppression of the freedom of the press doesn't even generate a story on this site, never mind comments. Call me a Grinch, or call me a wet blanket, but priorities around here are awfully screwed up.
Charles
6:39 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
WOW ! I wish I had this much free time. I'd definitely put it to better use than most of you have. ;) Don't bother to reply, it's said tongue in cheek.
Tony Avila
6:47 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
The reason you put up a tree its because its CHRISTMAS so its a CHRISTMAS TREE...do you put a tree up for the 4th of July?
If the Gov. Gump wants to call it a Holdiay Tree he should sit on top of it! For the ones who voted for this idiot, we got another 3 years of an idiot leading this State down hill....I think we should IMPEACH him!
The Shill
7:06 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Being a Pagan I don't celebrate Christmas the reason I put up a tree is for Yule Dec.21 so letss call it a yule tree.
The Shill
7:10 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
We could call it what it really is a Fir tree.
The Shill
7:28 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Christmas is more a commercial enterprise than a religious observance – Jesus isn’t the reason for the season, buying consumer goods is. So Happy Conspicuous Consumption Day
Vin
8:29 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Exactly. View my video and how the merchants "mourn" at the loss of that commercial partner when religions are finally turned upon, because they are deemed too disturbing an element of society. All the conflicts and money spent on wars, and God's wrath as well brings this all about. No one religion is singled out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDeyLRty45I
katherine
7:32 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
The governor says he is calling it a holiday tree because rhode island was founded on religious freedom and tolerance. So why can't he have some tolerance for Christians and let them have their Christmas tree.
Tonya Borello
9:12 pm on Wednesday, November 30, 2011
I will personally gather all of my friends and family to volunteer and support anyone who runs against this CLOWN we call Governor. You sir, are a joke and you need to focus on the issues that matter most. Holiday tree? which Holiday? OH CHRISTMAS! Therefore it is a christmas tree. On valentines day we will call it a valentines tree, and st. patricks day a st. patricks day tree and so forth. Joke of the century.
Joe Sousa.
5:34 am on Thursday, December 1, 2011
The governor is inviting all Rhode Islanders to join him and his wife for the annual lighting next Tuesday, Dec. 6, at 5:30 p.m.
Bring your singing voice and join in the Christmas caroling.
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Thy leaves are so unchanging;
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Thy leaves are so unchanging;
Not only green when summer's here,
But also when 'tis cold and drear.
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Thy leaves are so unchanging!
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Much pleasure thou can'st give me;
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Much pleasure thou can'st give me;
How often has the Christmas tree
Afforded me the greatest glee!
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Much pleasure thou can'st give me.
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Thy candles shine so brightly!
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Thy candles shine so brightly!
From base to summit, gay and bright,
There's only splendor for the sight.
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Thy candles shine so brightly!
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
How richly God has decked thee!
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
How richly God has decked thee!
Thou bidst us true and faithful be,
And trust in God unchangingly.
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
How richly God has decked thee! !"
RI Teabagger
6:50 am on Thursday, December 1, 2011
Will there be a protest? Can I bring my signs?
Mom to twins
9:11 am on Thursday, December 1, 2011
The thing is he called it a Holiday Tree and everyone else is jumping on it and making him explain it. It's not like he set up a committee to oversee this decision, he has not taken anything away from his duties in this. Yes, I agree it is a Christmas Tree. I think we are honoring those who came here for religious freedoms by staying with the name Christmas Tree. That being said, I don't need government or schools or department stores to tell me what it is or how to greet people during this time of the year. How about we all stop giving this so much attention and do something productive with our day. I'm off to wrap Holiday Presents ;)
John Pearl
10:59 am on Thursday, December 1, 2011
Christmas Tree... been there, done that, bought the T-Shirt. Really... bought the T-Shirt. See it here www.cafepress.com/just4yucks.11046716
John Pearl
11:00 am on Thursday, December 1, 2011
As Larry the Cable guy would say... I don't care what religion you are, that there is funny.
Charles
5:10 pm on Thursday, December 1, 2011
OK, I THOUGHT I WAS DONE WITH THIS, BUT I HAVE TO REPORT TO YOU ALL THAT AFTER DRIVING ALL AROUND THE ISLAND I JUST COULD NOT FIND A STAND SELLING HOLIDAY TREES ANYWHERE..... imagine that!
Jean Marie Veegh
6:31 pm on Thursday, December 1, 2011
Imagine that <smile>
Charles
6:33 pm on Thursday, December 1, 2011
;)
Ron
9:47 am on Monday, December 5, 2011
Christmas Tree, if i heard anyone else call it a holiday tree, I would think that person is a freak of nature. Enough said.
paul
12:06 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
It's a dead tree, killed by Rhode Island politics.
deb of see-attleboro
3:44 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
I don't know if it's been mentioned. But does anyone remember the year the state house killed the Christmas tree with fire retardant? Times were simpler then:)
Sailor
4:11 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
MERRY CHRISTMAS & HAPPY NEW YEAR!....or is New Year referred to as something else now? Happy start to the next orbit around the sun?
The Shill
5:29 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
Put up my Pagan Solstice Tree today. Happy yule to everybody I would wish you a Merry Christmas but Christ was born in the spring.
thatguydrummer@yahoo.com
5:59 am on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
I don't believe the Patch survey results, there is no way that 26% feel it should be called a holiday tree... No way.
Thomas
7:32 am on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Drummer Guy, I beleive it. Its sad I know.... Heck they dont even do the Pledge of allegiance in school anymore because "God" is mentioned. And we wonder why the country is the way it is.
Richard Brum
7:39 am on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Hey Thomas, you DO know that "God" was added to the Pledge in the 1950s during the McCarthy era and the "Red Scare", right? And that students shouldn't be compelled to worship a god through a public school-led recitation of a pledge? Learn your Constitution before making idiotic statements, such as claiming that students not being forced to worship somebody's god is what's causing...whatever it is you think it's causing.
Thomas
7:57 am on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Ok "Commi" Brum will do. Do you feel better now ?. My point was well stated with your remarks. And we wonder why the country is the way it is. May God have mercy on your pathetic soul
Richard Brum
8:05 am on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Heh? What makes you jump to the illogical conclusion that I'm a Communist? Read a little about the McCarthy era, Thomas. Know your history. It will serve you well. Educate yourself.
What do you mean by "the way it is", Thomas? Do you mean Christians who try to deny gays equal rights in our society? Do you mean Christians meddling with women's uteruses instead of minding their own business? Do you mean Christians who abuse their majority privilege and try to get Creationism taught in public schools, call evolution "just a theory" and "unprovable", seek to oppress and marginalize all non-Christians, and basically make this country a living hell?
Then yes, I agree that the country is a certain way, but it's religion that's causing most of the harm. You cannot point to a single thing that's wrong with this country that is a direct result of atheism.
Either way, your fear of Communism and your willingness to slap the "Commie" label on somebody you disagree with, is exactly what the McCarthy Era was all about, and why it is such a reviled and disgusting time in this country's history.
Thomas
8:40 am on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Dear Commi Brum, I think you need a hug. Where you a alter boy in the past ? You have something against the Catholics for sure. I have seen all your negative comments towards othesr on the Patch. There is something wrong with your nogging to be that hatefull towards others. Have a Merry Christmas my Commi friend
Kevin Oliver
9:04 am on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Ok so here's what I say. Since we are a poor state we shouldn't put lights on them. lets use candles like they did in the old days. I dont care what you call it a Christmas Tree a Johnnycomelately Tree whatever.. JUST MAKE SURE IT HAS MY PRESENT UNDER IT!
Jean Marie Veegh
11:14 am on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Interesting that of the arguments about the offensive Christmas Tree, you'll be hard pressed to find any that appear to be coming from anyone other than professed atheists or lukewarm Christians. No Jews chiming in with "Yes, keep that Christmas tree our of public offices!" Not a mention from an offended Hindu, Muslim or a Buddhist. What does this say? A logical assumption may be that our friends from non-Christian faiths probably get it. I have a dear Hindu friend who never forgets my Christmas e-card. It isn't about religions duking it out over percentages of fair public display time. The long-held tradition in the U.S.is religious freedom. The state is to establish nor promote or discourage any religious observance. Chaffee (and yes, other nincompoops before him) deciding to keep the word Christ from the Christmas Tree was and is, in direct opposition to the wishes of the majority. It's appalling that Christians are compelled to argue why they view the alteration of the word offensive. The “pseudo intellectuals” don’t want to get it. My guess is they would prefer it gone. In reality, it should more so be a non-issue to them. Forced apologetics. Pathetic. Those that purport defense of all religions can't have it both ways.
John Pearl
12:46 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
@Jeannie: Just because most of us choose not to bother complaining, being agreeable sorts, does not mean you should leap to the, "logical assumption ... that our friends from non-Christian faiths probably get it."
No, we (at least I) don't get it nor do I really care. Have your Christmas Trees and enjoy them. Have a Merry Christmas. Fine with me.
What I really don't get is why the secular government of the State of Rhode Island is spending tax dollars on a Christmas Tree, with all the costs of lights and maintenance and what goes with it. I think it is wrong for the state to be spending public tax dollars on religious symbols for any religion be it Christian, Jewish, Hindu, what ever. Isn't that the job of the respective churches?
The Shill
2:27 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Jeannie what you don't seem to understand is that the tree has been a Pagan religious symbol for thousands of years about a hundred years ago the Christians decieded that it was a nice tradition and started to put trees in their homes and rename them Christmas trees. The problem is it is not your tradition but a Pagan tradition and as a Pagan I have a problem with the Christian arrogance to think they have a right to call it a Christmas tree. It is not yours to rename it is not a Christmas tree and never was. Get over yourselves the universe does not revolve around you. You say "It isn't about religions duking it out over percentages of fair public display time. The long-held tradition in the U.S.is religious freedom." then why are Christians always trying to shove Christ down my throat. Keep you god to yourself and I wont force you to support my Gods and Goddesses. Blessed Be!
John O'Gara
1:18 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Part II: As the famous Rhode Island historian Samuel G. Arnold stated:"That their object was to lay the foundation of a Christian state, where all who bore the name might worship God according to the dictates of conscience, untrammelled by written articles of faith, and unawed by the civil power, is proved by their declarations and by their subsequent conduct". So, to all the atheists and such, you are free to believe and worship as you choose, but understand that in our country, it is "In God We Trust". Christian symbols are an integral part of our heritage and as such belong in the public sector. As for me, I'll boycott Chafee's "Holiday Tree" lighting; and if he keeps ignoring our Christian heritage, he'll be one and done.
John O'Gara
1:19 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Part I: What greatly saddens me in our 'modern times' is the effort to which people will try to impose 'separation of church and state' when it comes to issues of manger displays, crucifixes, and other Christian symbols on public property. What some people fail to realize is that our country was founded on trust in God. Our forefathers (and mothers as in Anne Hutchinson) intended on separation of church and state; NOT separation of church from state. Not convinced? Portsmouth is widely regarded as the birthplace of American Democracy. Excerpt from the Portsmouth Compact:"We whose names are underwritten do hereby solemnly in the presence of Jehovah incorporate ourselves into a Bodie Politick and as He shall help, will sub-mit our persons, lives and estates unto our Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords...." (see next post for part II)...
The Shill
1:37 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Part 1
If the U.S. was founded on the Christian religion, the Constitution would clearly say so--but it does not. Nowhere does the Constitution say: "The United States is a Christian Nation", or anything even close to that. In fact, the words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, Creator, Divine, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not even once. Nowhere in the Constitution is religion mentioned, except in exclusionary terms. When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had.
The Shill
1:37 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
part 2
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." --- Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"
John O'Gara
2:37 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Shill, perhaps the fathers of the Constitution found no need to specifically mention God, for it was understood, as in the Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness". Our 'Creator' is a direct reference to God and how he has given us the gift of freedom
The Shill
4:25 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
The founders did not mention Christ once bun insted a nondescript deity. This is not a Christian nation. It could have been any higher power. You need to take a serious look at the history of this country.
Richard Brum
5:42 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
"Creator" is NOT a direct reference to Christianity, however. It is a reference to Deism, a concept which states that if God does exist, he/she/it is not involved in our lives in any way, but instead created us and no longer has anything to do with us. That is not was Christianity is at all. Christianity involves the belief that Jesus is your savior and died on the cross, etc., etc. There is not ONE mention of Jesus Christ in ANY of the founding fathers' speeches, writings, nor in the Declaration of Independence.
As for the DOI, it is not an official document, John. It is simply a letter to the king of England, basically saying to screw off. The Constitution is the legally binding document that serves as the basis of the laws of our land, and what the government can and cannot do.
It establishes the government as a specifically secular one, forbidding it from passing any laws having to do with religion or religious belief (which makes things like the National Day of Prayer unconstitutional and therefore illegal). This, in turn, is the foundation for the separation of church and state, something that many of the founding fathers have been quoted as being in favor of, for various reasons.
Are you also forgetting the legally binding, OFFICIAL Treaty of Tripoli, which states, "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."
Re-read the above anytime you want to live in your fantasy "Christian nation" world.
John O'Gara
2:41 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
And, of course, let's not forget the words of our greatest President, in the Gettysburg Address:"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal..."(in order to be created, there must be a Creator, the same God mentioned in the Declaration of Independence); But wait, there's more!!!..."...that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth". The greatest speech ever written, in part I'm sure from his great love and devotion to God.
The Shill
4:34 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Again no reference to Christ just a nondescript deity. Christians forget their are more then one god. you seen to think the term god = Christian god it does not. It is a job discription he has a name I dont know why Christians dont use it to avoid confusion. God could be any deity.
John O'Gara
4:51 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Shill, again may I remind you that The Portsmouth Compact was the origin of American Democracy. No mention of Jesus Christ? Please visit Founder's Brook and meditate on that plaque, especially the part where it states "We...will sub-mit our persons, lives and estates unto our Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords"
Richard Brum
5:43 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Abraham Lincoln was not a founding father. This would be like quoting JFK or Bill Clinton to make your point about us supposedly being a Christian nation.
John Adams, however, WAS a founding father, and specifically wrote, in an official, legally binding document: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."
Kind of clear-cut, wouldn't you think?
The Shill
4:02 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
John just to let you know Anne Hutchinson and her group that founded Portsmouth and wrote the Portsmouth Compact were Puritans and would not have celebrated or beleived in Christmas. Puritans heaped contempt on Christmas calling it 'Foolstide' and suppressing any attempts to celebrate it. The Puritan argued that the selection of the date was an early Christian hijacking of a Roman festival, and to celebrate a December Christmas was to defile oneself by paying homage to a pagan custom.[
John O'Gara
3:05 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
And how did Lincoln conclude The Emancipation Proclamation? As such:"...And upon this act, sincerely believed to be an act of justice, warranted by the Constitution, upon military necessity, I invoke the considerate judgment of mankind, and the gracious favor of Almighty God."
The Shill
4:42 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Christians have been forcing their beleifs on others for 2000 years and cant even agree what it is to be a Christian. Which branch of Christianity was this country founded on? The Puritans in Massachusetts would put to death anyone who didnt follow their faith. Ann Hutchinson came to Rhode Island because she would have been executed had she remained in Massachusetts. History has taught us that their is no one size fits all religion.
Liberty Janus
3:24 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Must we deal yet again with misunderstandings (or are they just lies) about the history and purpose of the establishment clause and its subsequent interpretation by the courts and the fact that the constitution establishes the US as a secular nation with religious belief protected by separating it from government? This isn’t a difficult concept. RI’s most famous historical figure, Roger Williams, was a staunch advocate for it, and he was a devout believer. The US Constitution is secular, the establishment clause was inserted by a group of enlightenment thinkers (the founders, many of whom were Deists, not Christians) to purposely separate church and state because they well understood the centuries of history which demonstrated the pernicious effects of intermingling the two, and throughout the nation's history the concept has been understood and accepted by majorities of the population as securing freedom of belief and conscience FOR ALL and attacked only by those who wish to have the government establish THEIR religion using the force of government. To advocate that Xtians should be able to use the government to force their beliefs on non-Xtians is to advocate a dangerous authoritarianism.
Kevin Oliver
4:31 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
You people have way to much time on your hands.... You do know that on December 26th it wont freaking matter what you call the damn tree... God people can and will protest anything ughhhhh its sick......
John O'Gara
5:02 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Excellent article I found titled 'Christmas at the White House - Historical Background to an American Tradition' (http://www.alplm.org/education/Christmas_TRG.pdf); it's actually a teachers aid from 2005. So if we can have Christmas at the White House, how come we can't have Christmas at the State House? And if the citizens want to have Hanukkah, Ramadan and Kwanza at the State House, that's fine with me too. Americans should be free to worship God as they choose, or not worship at all, but let's honor our founders by thanking and honoring the One true God who has made this country, and our very existence, possible - GOD Bless America!
Richard Brum
5:37 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
"Americans should be free to worship God as they choose, or not worship at all" - EXACTLY! But having our government endorse any religious belief infringed upon our rights to leave religion a matter of conscience. Why don't you people understand that? Religion has NO PLACE on government grounds, or in our governments in any way, shape, or form. WE are free to practice religion (or not to) under our own terms, in our homes, in churches, in synagogues, in temples, in mosques... hell, the ACLU has even defended a student's right to post the Ten Commandments (at least the 10 out of the 613 total that Christians decide to pay attention to) in his locker! The ACLU!! Because it IS a civil right to practice one's religion... but it is NOT the right of the government to do the same thing. A government is representative of the ENTIRE body of people under it, not just one religious group, or the religious in general.
The Shill
6:59 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
And which god would that be?
John O'Gara
7:24 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
From the United States Treasury Department's document "History of 'In God We Trust'": "A law passed by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President on July 30, 1956, the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress, declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States". So, fellow Americans, if 'In God We Trust' is not our government's endorsement of Christianity, I must be missing something. As far as I'm aware, this law has never been repealed, and GOD willing, never will.
Richard Brum
7:27 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
John, learn your Constitution. That law was illegal, and still is to this day. It HAS been challenged, but has been overruled by somebody in power who would rather see it stay.
Slavery was legal at one point, but that didn't make it any more right or good, did it? Just because something was passed into law, doesn't it right OR Constitutional. Again, learn your Constitution before relying on laws that were unjustly passed.
Richard Brum
7:28 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Originally, our motto was "E Pluribus, Unum" - "From many, one". That was a more inclusive motto, including EVERYBODY, not just those who "trust" in "God". Not everybody believes in a god. Not just atheists, but most Buddhists as well. Saying "We Trust" "In God" is the most divisive statement anybody could make, and it's WRONG to pretend that all citizens fall under this banner. Just plain wrong.
John O'Gara
7:53 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Richard and Shill, I am quite familiar with the Constitution. What article or amendment mandates the separation of church FROM state? The 1st Amendment? Absolutely not! ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."). Where does it say that religious ideals and symbols are banned from our government? All it says is that the government is not to advocate or impose any religions on We the People. Perhaps you should study the Constitution with a bit more of an open mind, with the goal of considering the true intentions of our founders.
Richard Brum
7:56 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Your argument makes no sense. It's like saying "This crayon isn't purple, it's FUCHSIA!" Same thing. Separation of church and state is the same as separation of church FROM state, just like it's the same as separation of state FROM church. The Supreme Court happens to agree with me.
John O'Gara
7:59 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Another interesting item to contemplate in the debate...The Constitution does not require presidents to be sworn in on a Bible, though almost every President since George Washington has chosen to do so. This points to Shill's question "And which god would that be?", Well, the GOD of the Bible, of course! The Most Holy Trinity, three persons in ONE GOD. According to CNN, Chronicles 7:14 was used for three swearing-in ceremonies: "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land." Praise be Jesus!
Richard Brum
9:55 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
The fact that every single president has been Christian, and chose to swear on a bible, says nothing about the official nature of Christianity's involvement in our government, and vice versa. It simply speaks to the nature of each president's beliefs, and the fact that if they had chosen NOT to swear on a bible, people would be in an uproar. Can you imagine if Obama hadn't sworn on a bible, and used a secular swear-in instead? People would riot.
The Shill
3:59 am on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
Not all Presidents have been sworn in on a bible
John Quincy Adams was sworn in on a copy of a book of laws, not the Bible.
Lyndon Johnson was sworn in on a Catholic missal (a book with instructions for conducting Mass), not the Bible.
Theodore Roosevelt wasn't sworn in on anything - he just swore and that was that.
Franklin Pierce was affirmed in - not sworn in - on a copy of a book of laws, not the Bible.
The Shill
7:28 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Those who want the state to engage in public worship are defying jesus's injunction: “When you pray, be not like the pretenders, who prefer to pray in the synagogues and in the public square, in the sight of others. In truth I tell you, that is all the profit they will have. But you, when you pray, go into your inner chamber and, locking the door, pray there in hiding to your Father, and your Father who sees you in hiding will reward you” (Matthew 6:5-6).
Richard Brum
7:34 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
You think these particular Christians know their bible? Hell, I'm an atheist and like most of us, I know the bible better than they do. Jeremiah 10:1-4 also bashes the use of trees brought indoors as a symbolic gesture.
thatguydrummer@yahoo.com
8:12 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Everyone is spending countless hours on this but its still a Christmas tree.
John O'Gara
9:51 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Merry Christmas to all! May GOD grant us all the wisdom to perceive His love for us, and to share that unconditional love with everyone! Peace be with you!
Richard Brum
9:53 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
See, these are the types of comments that I really like, because it's kind-hearted in nature. Merry Christmas to you as well! You are a shining example to other Christians about what Jesus would have wanted: spreading love and joy and cheer, and wishing well to others.
The Shill
3:49 am on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
People like John is why the founding fathers put separation of church and state in the Constitution. Goddess help us if he was to get his way. The problem is he is living in a fantasy world. He doesn't understand that the bible is just a collection of myths and he takes it as fact. "Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State" Thomas Jefferson Founding Father
In Dog We Trust
7:14 am on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
Here here.
John O'Gara
2:35 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
Thomas Jefferson was the author of The Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom, adopted in 1785. Although we do not have the original manuscript in Jeffeson's hand, here's a quote from the introduction of the act: "Well aware that the opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will, but follow involuntarily the evidence proposed to their minds; that Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do...". Our founding fathers had a clear understanding that Almighty God gave us the gift of freedom, not forcing us to worship Him. But do you truly believe it was their intent to reject God in the governing of our country? We should always turn first to the creator and author of freedom in making decisions regarding the land of the free.
Richard Brum
2:38 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
"But do you truly believe it was their intent to reject God in the governing of our country?"
Read the First Amendment. Short answer: Yes. Long answer: It bars the government from having anything to do with religion in any of its decision making. So... Yes.
Again, I will have to quote the official Treaty of Tripoli, a legally binding document, which states, in no uncertain terms: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." Pretty cut and dry there.
"Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State" — Thomas Jefferson, founding father.
John O'Gara
4:52 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
According to the excellent website wallbuilders.com ("Presenting America's forgotten history and heroes with an emphasis on our moral, religious, and constitutional heritage"), the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli is commonly misused as evidence that America was not founded as a Christian nation. When, in fact, the statement to which you refer was an effort to assure the Muslim nations of The Barbary Coast that we did not wish to escalate tensions into a religious war. In fact, when discussing the Barbary conflict with Jefferson, President Adams declared: "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature"
The Shill
5:15 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
According to the excellent website http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm Jesus never existed. John you can find websites on any point of view it doesn't make them true. I have no intrest in your Christian revisionist history. The fact is the tree's origin is pagan and has nothing to do with Christ.
Jean Marie Veegh
10:22 am on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
Valiant efforts John, but you see what you're up against. God himself could come down & call it a Christmas tree and they'd find an argument. This is no longer about a tree with them, it's another op to work on extermination of religion. There is an agenda. These meatballs have no problems with "hate speech" of their own mocking believers, calling them delusional, etc. Like dealing with a 15 yr. old who always has to have a haughty last word. I like a good clean debate as much as anyone, but with these types, that will never exist.
Richard Brum
1:42 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
Straw-man argument. Nobody called anybody else delusional, Jeannie. This is the kind of thing that atheists go up against every single day. Our mere existence is a frightening threat to your very way of life. I'm all about good, clean debates, but with many Christians that's just not possible. I come across "Joe the Plumber" types about 10 times more than I come across the so-called "moderate", reasonable Christians. They just don't seem to exist. Even my own father, when I try to have a calm, reasonable debate, will start getting into a yelling match, of which I'll have NO part.
If you want a debate, fine, let's debate. I can argue reasonably with the best of 'em, but I guarantee at some point you'll lose your cool, call me a name, claim I'm doing something that I"m really not doing, or something ridiculous. It always seems to happen in debates that I'm in.
If anything, WE have been called delusional (or "dillusional"). Not the other way around. I did a text search on this page for the word "delusional". Guess what I found? Only YOUR mention of the word.
The Shill
1:01 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
Yes Jeannie play the martyr as you persecute any body who doesn't share your brand of religion. I am not trying to exterminate religion I am a pagan an just don't want christians telling me I have to be Christian. For thosands of years the Christians have been torturing and killing anyone who does not share their religious views and it is apparent that that attitude has not chanced. As a practicing witch I have experienced first hand just how evil some christians can be. You call not wanting to have Christ forced on me hate speech you need to look in the mirror and look into your soul and see if Christ really resides there.
Liberty Janus
1:03 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
As many have repeatedly noted, the point is to defend anyone’s right to hold whatever religious beliefs they want, but uphold the constitutional prohibition against government establishing any religion. As many have repeatedly noted, the establishment and free exercise clauses of the constitution PRESERVE freedom of conscience by prohibiting government from entanglement with religion. Not difficult concepts but apparently impossible for many to understand or accept.
That some people would also like to build a culture in which religious belief is absent (what Jeannie rather hyperbolically refers to as "extermination of religion") is a separate but certainly related issue. It is possible to defend everyone's right under the constitution to their religious beliefs by upholding the prohibition on government establishment and at the same time advocate that people abandon religious belief. The founders held these principles as obvious after centuries of abuses by church/state entanglements, and therefore embodied separation of church and state in the constitution.
So referring to working for a culture in which ancient myths are abandoned as “an agenda” is fine. It’s certainly a goal for many rational people, but working toward that goal IS NOT advocating that any individual’s right to their own beliefs be violated. To understand that distinction is to understand the need for separation of church and state, as the founders understood it.
The Shill
2:19 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
Jeannie again you miss the point when you say "Just don't change the name of my Christmas tree " It's not your Christmas tree. The tree has been a Pagan symbol for thosands of years the Christians have used it for a couple of hunderd. The Christians are the ones who changed the name of something that never belonged to them in the first place. How do you think the Jewish people would feel if you took the Menorah and started to call it a Christmas lamp. The Menorah by the way is a better symbol of Christmas then the tree after all Jesus was Jewish.
Joe Sousa.
3:47 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
The Gov. got eggnog on his face What a buffoon.
The Shill
3:54 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
Just some food for thought the pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston...
After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution. Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.
Susan
4:35 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
This character RICHARD BRUM stated that I should find more important things to discuss than a Christmas Tree! Well, Mr. Brum, it seems that you have spent half the day making insulting comments to many others who have commented. Maybe YOU need to get a life! And, MERRY CHRISTMAS to you and yours!
Richard Brum
4:41 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
I insult those who insult me. If you are deserving of my respect, I will respect you.
Also, "Merry Christmas" doesn't offend me in the slightest. It doesn't offend ANY atheist I know. What DOES offend me, however, is when people use it in a way that's intended to simply get a rise out of somebody. You should be ashamed of using your savior's birth as an attempt to bother someone. Baby Jesus would not be happy with you right now.
Also, I have a life. Don't pretend like you know what my life is like, Susan, just like I won't pretend to know what yours is like. It takes a few minutes out of my day to type up quick responses to false claims and lies. Most of this stuff comes from memory, the rest I have saved in a text file for easy reference. It takes no more than a few minutes to respond to somebody. Out of 16 waking hours, I hardly think that constitutes having no life.
Joe Sousa.
5:39 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
America, Land of the free. We are free to practice our believes with out government telling us what to believe.
Marxism-Leninism had consistently advocated the control, suppression,and, ultimately, the elimination of religion.
I chose the United States of America.
Those who would tell us a Christmas Tree is something else only promote a political agenda, that I will never subscribe to. Christmas is to some a religious holiday and to others just a time to be with family . The lack of sun shine this time of year can depress many of us. These times of joy serve a greater purpose than some may know. The family and friends coming together to celebrate builds spirits and helps relieve stress. Christmas is much more than a holiday . It's an American Tradition that all can enjoy. Except the Grinch
Richard Brum
9:26 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
I get email updates, so I could see that your original post said "Except the Richard Grinch Brum", but I'll let it slide, as you obviously corrected your childish comment.
I enjoy Christmas just as much as the next guy, theist or atheist. I actually agree wholeheartedly with your ENTIRE post above. We ARE free to practice our beliefs (or reject whichever ones we want) without government telling us what to believe. THAT is why it's crucial that the government not endorse any religious belief whatsoever. THAT is why it has been called a "Holiday Tree" for the past few years (decades?). THAT is why nobody should take offense to what the governor calls their tree; it's just an object! A dead plant! If the renaming of one particular tree by the governor is enough to cause you harm to your beliefs or religion, then maybe you need to rethink what you believe. Your beliefs should be secure enough to not be phased by this in the slightest.
Joe Sousa.
6:01 am on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Richard Grinch Brum
DownTown
9:13 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
If Chafee through up a Menura and called it a Holiday Candlelabra they'd be saying he was responsible for the Holocaust before it was over.
Richard Brum
9:28 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
A more apt analogy would be "Holiday Menorah". Even Menorah is Hebrew for "lamp". It's the adjective (Holday vs. Christmas or Hannukah) that people are so worked up over. Call it a Holiday Tree, Winter Tree, Solstice Tree, Flying Spaghetti Monster Marinara Tree.. whatever! We are all free to call our own trees whatever the heck we want. Chafee isn't dictating anybody else's beliefs by continuing the tradition of calling it a Holiday Tree, and if that's what people think, then maybe there's a problem with that person, not with Chafee.
DownTown
9:42 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
You appear to have missed my point while in the process of correcting me.
Richard Brum
9:43 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
I'm sorry, Jim, I meant to say that I absolutely agreed with your statement. I also apologize for using my reply to you as a launchpad for another rant.
DownTown
9:50 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
That's okay. Apology accepted.
I can only imagine what is was like for the kids that were there to sing tonight with the protesters there and all.
Certainly in all this our collective 'Christmas Spirit' is being changed for the worse.
Spring Street
10:26 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
When we celebrate a birthday we have cake & all the trimmings in celebration ! For Christ's Birth we have the Christmas Tree in Honoring his birth !
Here we sit looking at Our Beautiful flocked prelit Christmas tree all decked out. Next to it is the Nativity ! We genuinely have Love in our hearts for Christ !
We decorate the yard and lights in the windows. Christmas breathes warmth & love into many hearts especially in these hard times,bringing many closer !
My Granddaughter started purchasing gifts for children, which she donates to agencies - groups and anonymously to children who have very little.
We try and keep the Spirit of Christmas all year round , making certain anyone in need who we become aware of are assisted directly or indirectly. Sometimes it's an emergency and no time to call around just have to help . One never knows from day to day ! One elderly neighbor years ago was losing weight and his dog also. We dropped by and discovered no food at all in the house. The pet store committed to 50lbs of dog food a month , the grooming shop did the labs monthly and bathed him [he had a skin condition],we went to 10 food pantries and stocked his house whereas we were moving & wanted to make sure he had food. I called the Rotarian's they made certain he had a basket Thanksgiving,Christmas, Easter and groceries all year. Another neighbor gave him a truck, lawn mower , blankets etc. His landlord never raised his rent.
M. P.
11:38 pm on Wednesday, December 7, 2011
How sad that this controversy reared it's ugly head at the state house where a bunch of adult tree-ers drowned out a chorus of children. Pathetic and shameful!
Jack Baillargeron
1:07 am on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Oh well my 2 cents. It is a Federal Holiday, called Christmas. It is a Christmas Tree when put up and decorated for celebration of Christmas by many people. In this Country the freedom we have, allows us to decide what we call anything, they call that an {opinion). It is also my understanding that the Legislature passed a resolution calling the tree a “Christmas Tree”. That makes the Governor and I use that word loosely, wrong in his statement. But then again this guy is not the brightest bulb in the universe by any stretch.
I suspect had he stated it a Christmas tree, like the resolution says instead of his usual PC, none of this would be an issue, and blown out of proportion so much that we have again become a punching bag of laughter across the U.S. yet again and made a nightmare for parents who now have to explain why adults are so silly about why a tree cannot have the name of the holiday precede it. Kinda like 4th of July Fireworks, or Victory over the Japanese Holiday, oops scratch that PC already changed that one.
Richard Brum
3:01 am on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Dude, this resolution was passed by Doreen Costa IN RESPONSE TO Chafee continuing the long-standing tradition of calling it a "Holiday Tree". This was done so that Costa could then point to Chafee and claim he was going against the resolution. The resolution was written and passed matter-of-factly as a knee-jerk reaction to Chafee upholding this tradition.
People seem to complain about "PC" only when it means their beliefs don't get special treatment. Read my thoughts about this whole thing: http://yetanotheratheist.com/2011/12/theres-nothing-religious-or-christian-about-a-tree/
The Shill
3:11 am on Thursday, December 8, 2011
It's a resolution not a law it means nothing and carries no weight. If they had passed a bill then the Governor would have to sign it for it to become a law. A resolution is just the Legislature stating their opinion just like everyone here has and have accomplished nothing. I still have my opinion you still have yours I doubt either one will change. Seasons Greatings to all
Jack Baillargeron
1:08 am on Thursday, December 8, 2011
I fail to see the religious intonations of all these comments on it also. Faith and beliefs, or no faith or beliefs are individual choices to be respected by all. I also see no-one forcing any particular belief system on anyone by calling it a Christmas Tree. You would think in this day and age we are smart enough to understand that not everything is a Religious or Atheist plan to inflict beliefs . I know of no-one who has walked by a Christmas Tree and suddenly fell down and became born again, I know of no-one who walked by an area of nothingness and became “de-religionised” ( my word I like it lol).
Time does erase many things, however, that fact remains the common name for a tree put up in this Holiday Season is “Christmas Tree” for the vast majority of Americans and others across the planet, why the last few decades have been spent trying to change this shows only how petty many have become. I have no idea why religious people get upset about atheist or the other why around. The old “ Judge not Least Yee Be Judged” come to mind and is a good rule for everyone. Be glad you live in a country where all belief systems are protected; it could be a lot worse than this petty argument as history has shown. Wow guess it is about a nickel, oh well my bad ;-}
Jack Baillargeron
1:10 am on Thursday, December 8, 2011
I agree M.P. it is sad.
Jack Baillargeron
4:42 am on Thursday, December 8, 2011
well Dick, I don't know who dude is lol.
However you are incorrect as Chaffee was not the Governor last Christmas which is when the resolution was made and passed in January 2011. hense my opinion of him following that resolution wich was passed and became the policy of the State, he should have followed as State employees are required to do, according to the Resolution. Had he done so this would not be an issue I suspect. But leave it to this baffoon to mess anything up.
2011 -- H 5005
STATE OF RHODE ISLAND
IN GENERAL ASSEMBLY
JANUARY SESSION, A.D. 2011
JANUARY SESSION, A.D. 2011
H O U S E R E S O L U T I O N
RESPECTING CHRISTMAS TREES
Introduced By: Representatives Costa, Newberry, Reilly, Savage, and Trillo
Date Introduced: January 06, 2011
Referred To: House read and passed
RESOLVED, That it is the policy of the state that state officials and departments refer to the tree customarily erected or displayed in celebration of the period from Thanksgiving of each non-traditional terms; and year to January of the following year as a "Christmas tree" and not as a "holiday tree" or other RESOLVED, Further, that the Secretary of State be and he hereby is authorized and directed to send a duly certified copy of this resolution to each state agency and department.
To The Shill it was a binding Resolution not a non-binding one. That is why the Secretary of State implemented the Policy. In the end people do not want it? Change it.
Richard Brum
1:47 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Jack: I stand corrected. It was passed earlier this year. I was going on bad information. Thank you for that.
Regardless, this was a non-binding resolution (do your research). Furthermore, Doreen Costa wrote this "on a whim", showing her hypocrisy as she vowed earlier to never pass anything without it passing her test of Constitutionality, and without it having more than enough time to be read by all. She rushed this through, nobody even READ it when they voted on it. Also, Gordon Fox’s chief legal council John Flynn pointed out that the resolution was “not properly before the body,” and therefore in dispute.
Basically, Doreen wrote this resolution on a piece of paper, passed it around class, and told people to say "Yes" to it without even opening it up. She is a hypocrite, and if this indeed a binding resolution (as you so claim), then it is unconstitutional. Doreen should be ashamed of herself if that's the case.
Jack Baillargeron
4:53 am on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Also Dick, I do not need to read your link, because frankly it does not matter to me either way. I support freedom and the Constitution, when it comes to belief systems, I leave that to the individual, when it come to laws, resolution etc, that is the purvew and action of the people of the Republic through their represenatives. whether I agree or disagree with the actions takn by politicians and burocrats, I can at least lambast them for it, however it still doesnot make me or anyone right, but it does make is pleasure known and feels pretty good lol.
I still think this is blown way out of proportion in anycase because of our bean head, who yes I am biased against ;-}
On another note I discuss anything, even religion, but not in adverserial ways as it accomplishes nothing, that to me is happening way to much of late on both sides of that issue.Not that it matters, I have Native Beliefs, so I am in a real minority I suspect lol.
Richard Brum
1:53 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Hey, another one calling me "Dick" instead of Richard. Congratulations on figuring out grade-school humor. Let me guess... "What? It's technically your name, isn't it?" Yes, it is, but not the one I go by. Do I call you John? That's technically your name, since Jack is historically a diminutive of John. But I digress.
I don't care one way or another about Chafee, as I am a Massachusetts resident (although I live within throwing distance of Tiverton), but I see a lot of manufactured controversy where none should exist. It's a holiday tree. Christmas is a holiday, is it not? Chafee has two choices besides upholding previous tradition: have no tree at all, thereby offending Christians entirely; or call it a Christmas tree, which would be unconstitutional and possibly garner him a lawsuit or two. Either way, he loses. So the current route, having the tree up but calling it a secular term, is the only logical way to go.
You'd think that Christians would be happy that the government officially recognizes their holiday when it really shouldn't be in the business of doing so. You would also think they'd be happy that a symbol of their most cherished holiday, a tree, is publicly displayed on gov't property, when taxpayer dollars really shouldn't be used to erect such a symbol.
There are 2 sides to Christmas: the religious (Jesus et al) and the secular (Santa et al). The gov't is celebrating the secular. Citizens celebrate the religious AT HOME. That's the way it should be.
Joe Sousa.
5:37 am on Thursday, December 8, 2011
It's true that the people who object to Gov. Grinch's naming of the tree have other reasons to dislike him. The ending of E verify for employees who work for the State .
Bypassing the legislature to give in-state tuition to illegal immigrant students. Looking into giving driver licenses to illegal immigrants. This Gov. has proven to be the type who will ruin this state if given the chance. The people of RI have had enough of his PC . He needs to be put in his place, and the Tea Party is the group who will do it. God Bless the patriots who will stand against this clueless liberal. Our State and Country has been going down the wrong path. The Tea Party is the only group that is working to set us back on the right path. The liberals will cry and call us names. In the end Gov. Grinch is helping our cause. Keep it up Gov. Grinch, our numbers are growing.
God Bless America
Vin
8:16 am on Thursday, December 8, 2011
God doesn't bless America or any country for that matter. Why do you believe he would pick a country to "bless" when "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one"? All of these countries are going to be destroyed at Armageddon when Jehovah's Kingdom takes over and you're stating "God bless America." Nationalism is just a dividing force in a world of haughtiness, arrogance, materialism, etc. My only advice for you is try to learn your Bible and break free from unscriptural traditions and Babylon the Great.
nptresident
7:27 am on Thursday, December 8, 2011
OMG. Are people STILL on this foolishness? Yeah, I get it. You're intolerant and believe that Christmas is all about you. Thanks. This "holiday" stuff has been going on for YEARSSSSS! You love the Christmas tree. I get it it. Enough! Move on.
Tony Avila
8:24 am on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Merry Christmas to all ....the Holdiay that is coming on the 25th is called Christmas, therefore if we put up a tree its a Christmas Tree....if you dont celebrate Christmas you have that right, but if you are putting up a tree during this Holiday its a Christmas Tree.
the HOLIDAY IS CHRISTMAS what dont some people get.
This is enough on this get over it its a Christmas TREE! oh by the way Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, yes it will be a new year do you want us to call it something else too.
Liberty Janus
2:03 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2009/11/26/time/
Jack Baillargeron
3:45 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
To Richard Blum
Actually you are incorrect again, First off you called me Dude, kinda disrespectfull o use toward an adult or a person you obviously do not know. well dick is merely a nickname for richard to my knowledge, of the last 50 or so decades. Sorry you decided to right away assume it was a dig and not merely a reply to you calling me dude.
A for Jack, it is my real name, as I have a brother named John. your assumtion on that is also incorrect. It is a New england thing since old JFK was called Jack people commonly think everyone is that around here it seems. I am from Idaho where Jack is Jack and John is John.
You fail to see my point in my opinion that Chaffee could have prevented all this embarassment in the first place, by merely following the resolution passed before he took office. Why he chose to put his personal opinion before that is just another exmple of his ineptness as governor to me.
Not going to argue the Seperation Of Church and State as it is blurred over the years and to me appears to have taken great liberty in what the founders and Jefferson inparticular meant about it. Also think it being used to futher pettyness and fear of the some theocracytaking over the Country is amusing to say the least.
But in the end it is still opinion of both sides, but as long as a binding resolution is in place, that is the rule, it is a Christmas tree. Repeal the rule or amend the Constitution, thats the right of any citizen. Have agood Christmas ;-}
Jack Baillargeron
3:56 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Oh richard to the Resolution, well all you say may be correct on costa, the fact remains it was approved and given to the secretary of state to implement as State policy, as stated by the actual wording I posted from the Statehouse. If people want it changed then there is a way, write their legislatures. hough I prefer they get on with putting the State back on track instead of petty things that have nothing to do with the State of the State.
But over 75 years of Democrated super majority control of the Legislature, ( longest in history of the US), at least here we can blame them for everything lol. Not to mention our State Constitution give more power to the Speaker than the Governor in any case also lol.
It is why I find the State so amusing and also sad for it. No new idea's in just status quo. Now thats something to debate. is it not?
Richard Brum
4:21 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Unfortunately I don't know quite enough about politics, especially those of Rhode Island (a state that is but a stone's throw away from my house), to debate issues like that. With this particular holiday tree issue, I merely argue from logic, reason, and as much research as I could do between posts. I try not to speak without knowing all the facts, but occasionally it happens (like with when the resolution was passed).
federal fireman
4:00 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Jack dude lighten up. people use the word dude all the time and it is not really a term of disrespect. get out of your glass house and stop being a sissy. And you are not from Idaho.
Jack Baillargeron
4:08 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
It is obvious you do not know me or you would know I am from Idaho. Get back to work, your post is false. To the Dude, that is between me and Richard and since you cannot read to well to know it was light heartedness between me and richard, you need to try a different approach o try and stir up an argument, where there isn't one.
Jack Baillargeron
4:10 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
By the way the article is about holiday tree or christams tree if you care to actually read that. Not looking for posters to try and correct on issues that have nothing to do with the article or to post a lie of ones birthpalce of which you know nothing about in any case.
Jack Baillargeron
4:14 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
It is also funny and weird you would decide to sign up on the patch and your first post is so misinformed and not even on a story, wow must be pretty boring life there, by the way a Fireman is someone who shovels coal into a boiler, but I will still assume you mean you are a firefighter. A noble position to be sure, but at least get it right wil you lol.
Richard Brum
4:17 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
See, I couldn't tell that you were being light-hearted. I certainly was when I called you "Dude". Glad to see that "the Dude abides". :-)
In the end, I think we can agree that Costa drafting this resolution was hypocrisy on her part. And everything I've read outside of this site mentions Costa's resolution as "non-binding". Either way, it was a sneaky thing to do.
Jack Baillargeron
4:36 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
I agrre it was a foolish thing to waste time on that resolution, It is binding though or it would have said it was non-binding when sent to the "Secretary of State" to implement or she would not have sent it out to all departments.
This State is allways in the news for its sillyness and corruption, we are still in the top 5 in the country for that, 43 in business friendly, 41st in education, 5th highest paid teachers in the US. Still try to figure that problem on that, though definitly a complicated argument not for this story lol.
Though we have moved down the FBI list for most politician put in jail, Still in top 5 for that though. lol
Also think this could have been just, hey we are putting a tree in the State house and the lighting is on this date etc. Feel free to call it what you want as it is a free society. His calling it a Holiday tree was obviously stupidy, if he did not realize the controvesy it would cause in the Most Catholic State in the US by percentage of Population. So I still blame him ;-}.
Richard Brum
4:38 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
If Chafee had just called it a "tree", he still would have had every religious group on his behind for not referring to it as a Christmas tree. Calling it a holiday tree was nondescript, secular, and the most reasonable thing under the circumstances. You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.
Richard Brum
4:39 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Also, remember it was John DePetro from WPRO who originally drummed up all this controversy, to which Chafee felt he had to respond and defend his stance. Chafee didn't start this controversy, DePetro and Costa did, if anybody.
nptresident
4:58 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
DiPetro started this stuff. He got himself on Fox News. He got his 5 minutes. Let's move on. WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jack Baillargeron
5:02 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Bottom line in this country right now is you cannot please anyone, The Phase of the year is "keep division of the people in the forefront and they will not pay attention to what is actually going on", Got to be in a political hand book on bothside somewhere for sure lol.
Disagree chaffee didn't start it, he should have had the sense to know it was a mistake to do it the public way he did. There were other ways to approach it if he did not want to say xmas tree such as this holiday Christmas tree I do hear by light, lol
Now that would be interesting to see how that would be disputed lol
The Shill
5:20 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Everybody has missed the real issue here Forget about the name people should be outraged that a State that is bankrupt should not be wasting money on trees. When the Bank is ready to forclose on your house you don't pay to put lights on it. This may not be a large expenditure but in these tight fiscal times no unnecessary spending. Every little bit adds up.
Charles
5:48 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
This has been taken by most of you to a level far beyond ridiculous. Make your comment, and counter the replies once or twice, then drop it. We (Christians) like calling it a Christmas tree. Others don't. That's fine. To each his own. You can argue all day long about what an idiot this present governor is, (my opinion, he's a total buffoon) or keep throwing jabs back and forth at each other (I have to agree with the Atheists on this one, not a very Christian thing to do) OR, what I would really like to see, since you all have SOOO much time to argue over what to call, what I refer to as a Christmas Tree, is for you to put some energy into pressuring our Senators and Congressmen and demand they do something about the real thieves who are ruining our economy, the oil speculators. The Goldman -Sachs clan, Parnon Energy Inc. of California, Arcadia Petroleum of the United Kingdom, Swiss-based Arcadia Energy, James T. Dyer of Australia and Nicholas J. Wildgoose of California to name a few. People will piss and moan over the price of clean drinking water (by far one of the cheapest things you can buy today, do some research before you try to counter this one) or the price of a stamp to send a letter clear across the country, but gas goes up a dime a gallon and nobody says a word. People cry about not being able to afford this or that, then pull into the highest price gas station around without batting an eye. WAKE UP and smell the ethanol. Focus your energy on doing us all some good
Jack Baillargeron
9:34 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Ahhh Charles you have 6 comments on this, are only you allowed more than 2, just curious lol
Joe Sousa.
9:19 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Charlie Brown finds himself depressed at Christmas time, searching for the true meaning of the holiday amidst the glitz and commercialism of the modern age. He finds his answer in the passage below:
"And there were in the same country shepherds, abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them! And they were sore afraid ... And the angel said unto them, "Fear not! For, behold, I bring you tidings o great joy, which shall be to all my people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ, the Lord."
"And this shall be a sign unto you: Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger." And suddenly, there was with the angel a multitude of the Heavenly Host praising God, and saying, "Glory to God in the Highest, and on Earth peace, and good will toward men."
"That's what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown." - Linus Van Pelt
Liberty Janus
9:42 pm on Thursday, December 8, 2011
Charlie Brown finds himself depressed at Christmas time, searching for the true meaning of the holiday amidst the glitz and commercialism of the modern age. He finds his answer in the passage below:
http://calamitiesofnature.com/archive/?c=470
"Sure, Charlie Brown, I can tell you what Christmas is all about.
December 25th is associated with the birth of many pagan gods, including Mithra, Horus, Hercules, Zeus, and Sol Invictus. The Roman festival Saturnalia would also end around this time. Christianity imported many of these pagan myths and traditions into its own customs around 400 CE. Today Christians express outrage that Christmas is losing its Christmas roots. This is ironic since it was Christianity that hijacked the holiday in the first place to make it easier to convert new followers. Nevertheless it is a wonderful opportunity to share our love with friends and family, and commit acts of good will for those that are less fortunate. It is a time for children to revel in their innocence and wonder about the world, and adults to find their inner child.
That's what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown." – Linus van Pelt
The Shill
12:30 pm on Friday, December 9, 2011
Editorial from this weeks O Jornal hits the nail on the head
“The nuts for the tree
Apparently, it is not just squirrels that shake trees to watch the nuts fall out. If you haven’t noticed the biggest story in Rhode Island has nothing to do with the jobless rate, the pension fund dilemma, but rather what to call a pine tree.
Let’s face it, there is nothing more important than a tree if you happen to be a pinecone, a squirrel or a bird looking for a safe perch. But let’s not let those who feast on controversy distort the reality of Christmas.
For those of you who are worried that our cultural celebration is under attack, don’t worry. It is not. You see Jesus was not born in a tree house nor was there a tree in his manger. In fact, the angels who heralded his name were not sitting on trees. The star that was shining so bright was not sitting on a tree and neither Joseph nor Mary were climbing a tree when Jesus was born. The tree is actually along with Santa Claus the greatest risk to the real reason why we celebrate Jesus. The tree is a pagan celebration incorporated into a Christian celebration – hardly a sacred relic. Ironically, there are those out there who have missed the point.
The Shill
12:30 pm on Friday, December 9, 2011
It does not mater if it is a holiday tree or a Christmas tree. It does not mater if it is Manny Claus or Santa Claus. Neither has anything to do with the point of Christmas. Sure there are those who are calling the naming of the Rhode Island Holiday Tree an attack on Christmas, an attack on culture, an attack on God even. The real attack came when we added the tree to the manger, a Santa to the holiday and allowed the nuts to fight to preserve a pagan symbol while claiming they are saving Jesus.”